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dr.house
4th November 2010, 21:38
Time for a new thread for all you hardcore denim nerds: let's talk about real japanese denim (Kaihara in most cases) versus US Denim (Cone in most cases). Not turkish or italian or african denim. Let's talk about the both and real and only denims.

So, what are the special differences? Which one do you prefer? Pros & cons? Moar infos plz! Yeah, a real sufu thread at myNudies. Let's breathe some professional life in our little, cozy forum ;-)

Main point for me is: I don't really prefer japanese OR US denim; I simply love both.
It's like good food- no one loves Pasta everyday...
Today I wear my SDA203's, something special- a japanese jean, made in japan with the great japanese work finish, but made of Cone denim ;-)
It's the same feeling you get with washed LVC's: after wash they're unbeatable smooth and soft, one difference I admit compared to my Denimes or my beautiful Indys (which are LHT, maybe not the best comparison cuz' LHT is much softer than RHT). Yeah, and I really like that. The material of Cone is not as thick as most japanese fabrics. This may sound like a disadvantage, but when it comes to 'vintage' I am sure no jean of the 40's, 50's or 60's was made in 15 or 17 oz. Remember that jeans was a cheap piece of clothing in the older days...Can we say Cone is more vintage? I tend to think so. Just some first thoughts, I hope this will be finally the start of some interesting discussions.

beautiful_FrEaK
4th November 2010, 21:51
Cone should be the more vintage-like denim as they produced most of the denim back in the days. But as we all know there are many different Japanese brands which als use some denim with a good vintage character and feel. I think of Warehouse (DuckDigger and Dubbleworks too) and Denime. But also Fullcount and maybe Resolute. Also the many house-brands like Porky's, Gleem and Burgus have some more vintage-inspired denim.

Of course is Samurai, PBJ ans Oni on a total other route. Heavy,slubby, different weft colors.
I love the texture, weight, fading properties, toughness of my Samurai denim jeans. But I also love the denim on my Denimes. It's unique.
I only handled the Cone denim from my LVC '47 and I'm not a fan of it.

Atzec
4th November 2010, 21:55
I love the character japanese denims have.
there´s so much variety in japanese denim, while, in my experience, US denim somehow always looks similar. i´m not saying that US denim is boring, but there´s somehow i think japanese denim has more to give.

dr.house
4th November 2010, 23:07
Hmm, if you look at the Cultizm LVC Contest (at Sufu, of course) you can see a lot of LVC's fading in totally different ways. Some guys mentioned that jap denim fades faster than Cone...And I agree totally, the Denimes are something very special and really a thing of beauty (as well as the Indys). I guess I need some more jap jawnz in the nearer future ;-)
On the other hand I like the idea of wearing an 'original' or at least a true emulation. And the simple style of LEvis.
Paul T. posts, that LVC ( and Cone) has done DNA analytics from the old originals to achieve the same character and quality of the denim. Wow.

DoitsuJin
5th November 2010, 00:00
I think the variety that comes with the Japanese denim just makes it entirely more appealing.

I do own one pair of LVCs, though.

mikecch
5th November 2010, 00:33
In general I find that a lot of the denim being produced by smaller Japanese mills like NM, etc appeal to me more in terms of the texture, hand and weight.

I find most LVC denim a little on the uninteresting side - no hate, as they are 'supposed' the imitate the denim of the old Levi's/Cone partnerships.
That said though, the Cone on my Roy's are pretty nice for the price, and Cone's experimental stuff (the tweed denim, etc) are very interesting also.

I guess when talking about US denim, we're pretty much talking about Cone's White Oak stuff?
And since Levi's has almost complete usage of their White Oak's STF fabrics, US denim then mostly refers to LVC.
So I guess a large part of this discussion hinges on our personal liking for LVCs too?

I for one really think that the construction of the US/EU LVCs of yesteryears has really let Cone denim down... a big reason why I don't have more Cone in my wardrobe is because most LVCs I have handled are built kinda badly compared to their Japanese imitators.

I do own a pair of LVC too, the 1967 505 made with Kaihara denim - even though the sanforised 14.5 oz Kaihara fabric is interesting, the construction is very average...it took me half an hour to cut off or tie-in the loose threads on the inside of the jeans.

That said though, I'm glad the White Oak denim is slowly being used by other smaller, more artisanal, US brands.
Hopefully through partnering with them Cone's denim will grow as well!

As a side note, I don't necessarily think you could classify Cone as slow fading and the Japanese stuff as fast fading either, like someone on SuFu did - huge generalisation!!!
Anyone who's tried to fade Nihon Menpu's sc40x00 denims will tell you they aged slower than their own skin did.

aquadynamic
5th November 2010, 00:33
I (and maybe others) don't even know, at core, what's the main difference between the two types... just the way they source the cotton? or construction, dyeing?

DoitsuJin
5th November 2010, 00:48
you can't really talk about construction when it comes to the fabric considering... well, there isn't really any construction.

IIIrd Icon
5th November 2010, 04:19
i really don't want/need to delve into the more technical stuff of denim making. there no such incontrovertible evidence/argument that conclusive swing the advantage to one over the other. it all depends on one's personal taste & preference. the other week i had this very interesting talk with Chukka [store sitter/manager(?) of Graham Fowler's @Greenwich Village] about vintage scooters, work boots & denim jeans. he claimed he got all sorts of different models of Levi's + Lee's= 42 pairs__ & that's all he collects cuz that's where all [these denim-mania] got started.

he's right & i respect his views. although, i kinda see the whole denim craze/obsession from a different perspective. i see it as evolutionary & progressive. i got 2 pairs of Valencia made 501 555= '47 model + WWII, which is all the Cones i can wish for [& handle]. i like to have a "denim experience" in a wider spectrum. __ with varying cuts, fits, & denims. one perceivable distinction, if i may point out is, that Cone has earned rep through the years by it's consistent quality & established standards which it needs to maintain & uphold__ which ironically, imo, held them back to a degree.

on the other hand, jap denim is more like the "Wild West"__ no holds barred & very innovative. what's impressive [for me] was that the Japanese paid homage by going back & re-learning the old ways of producing denim & mastered making the jeans down to its minutest details... before they fcuked with it ;-). by combining their own traditional textile & dyeing techniques, they came up with some "next level" shiet.

Max Power
5th November 2010, 08:22
I don't know if that's the right place for asking that...unfortunately I can't contribute to the discussion in another way, as I don't own an US fabric. From what I've touched and seen, the LVC's lookid a bit "boring" to me, not because of the cuts and I like the evolution they stand for, but the denim itself wasn't appealing. But what really interests me: when you look at some Lightning magazines, it's incredible how many "reaL" denim stores there are in Japan. So I wondered, if it's normal there for most people to buy, let's say Samurai Jeans (or old Big E stuff), instead of some cheap H&M stuff or something similar. And where does this appreceation come from? I think the Japanese were adapting some western lifestyle, as the germans did after WWII, and with that came the biker/rocker/denim image. I may be totally wrong, but it would be great if somebody could clarify a bit of the history of jap. denim and how the society there stands toward it.

dr.house
5th November 2010, 09:42
^ Good to see some interesting talk finally again at myNudies. As said before, I don't prefer one of those denim fabrics, I really love both. Some of you guys metioned a boring feeling about LVC, but hey, those models are jeans from the past, cut- and denimwise. They mustn't be innovative and maybe they mustn't be too well finished to stay as close as possible to the old originals (even if I couldn't admit any faults on my LVC's).
But if you ever wear a well worn in, old pair of LVC's you'll get the feeling of wearing a real jean. Simple, dirty and beautiful, the way jeans got to be.
I didn't get the same feeling from my jap pairs so far, but maybe this will change.

mikecch
5th November 2010, 10:59
I kinda don't understand the 'real' jeans comment dr. house... sure, most repros and modern day denim is based on something Levi's, Lees or Wranglers have done previously, but I think a well-worn pair of, say, SDA or Fullcounts made with Japanese denim can look every bit as good as, if not better than, Levi's jeans of any period.

IMO the Japanese jeans makers that were repro-ing Levi's & Lee's and the Japanese denim mills that previously were trying to copy Cone's fabrics have truly gone above and beyond the 'originals' - incorporating (as IIIrd stated) their own traditional textile and dyeing methods and their single-minded, absolutely dedicated craftsmanship - they, to me, are the next step in what denim can be, and should be.

I don't think some of LVC's messy finishes have anything to do with abiding by their roots either...sloppy is sloppy - if Sugar Cane or Fullcount were legally allowed to reproduce Levi's stuff to exact detail, they would blow LVC out of the water.

Max Power
5th November 2010, 11:19
^as I understand dr. house, that's what he means. Even if the japanese modern companies offer higher quality, LVC tries to recreate the original fabrics as close as possible - and that may include a sloppy production.

dr.house
5th November 2010, 11:23
Do you own a pair of LVC's? I was talking about the feeling of wearing a worn in pair of, let's say, 47's...Maybe it's only me, but it feels like you step back in time and wear a jean of that days. Sounds romantic? ;-) Yep!
I totally agree with you guys, jap denim is fantastic, no question. As said before, I own only a pair of SDA Indys and a Denime 66xx (besides my SDA203-sic, Cone Denim ;-), and Edwin sen selvage, but that's another story). All are awesome, no doubt. And I know japanese guys are doin' a perfect job when it comes to clothing (not only jeans).

But hey, I wanted to talk about the fabrics only and their differences.

beautiful_FrEaK
5th November 2010, 13:37
I don't think loose threads are a homage to the "good old days"...that's something you'll find on newer jeans. things back in the days were produced more cleanly IMO

IIIrd Icon
5th November 2010, 13:44
okey, in that case, simpler put, Cone gives a more even/vintage fade than the more contrasty [I]jap denim. maybe, "boring" is not the word, but they pretty much end up looking simlar in the end cuz the dyeing process doesn't vary much__ for reasons mentioned before about keeping/maintain established standards.

i got a '98 prodn '47s & '00 WWII. they're slightly different in texture & color, but when i do get to wear them in down the line, i assume they'd look pretty much similar in fade. the Levi's/Lee's/Wrangler's from yesteryears symbolize a global "movement". the original prodn [not repros like the pairs i got] cost thousand$$, not cuz they're better per se, but because they hold the mystique__ that's where it all begun, forchristsake!

for base comparison, these are from my photo stock of my 501 555. the WWIIs i need to dig up at my parent's in LA__ both are heavy 140zers:

http://i499.photobucket.com/albums/rr356/brownmetallic/levis1.jpg

http://i499.photobucket.com/albums/rr356/brownmetallic/levis2.jpg

laxlife1234
5th November 2010, 13:45
I (and maybe others) don't even know, at core, what's the main difference between the two types... just the way they source the cotton? or construction, dyeing?

LOL, I'm kind of with you on that... But what if someone found out that all denim is made in china?? Nah, I'm just playing xD. But on a serious note, can anyone possibly compare which holds up longer, with 2 brands? 1 Everything made in America VS. made in japan? I would like to see with equal amount of wear over let's say a year-2 years which one holds up the longest.

Obviously they won't hold up forever but, I mean like which will completely become destroyed first, or which one tears quicker?

mikecch
5th November 2010, 14:16
^as I understand dr. house, that's what he means. Even if the japanese modern companies offer higher quality, LVC tries to recreate the original fabrics as close as possible - and that may include a sloppy production.

Actually, many people reckon Sugar Cane's 47/55/66 fabrics are closer to the original than the Cone fabrics that Levi's use.
That's why I said if SC could legally replicate old Levi's jeans in their entirety, LVC would lose out.

I highly doubt Levi's of old were made with sloppy construction though...it would have been trampled by Lee, Wrangler, Boss of the Road, etc long ago if they consistently pumped out poorly made jeans.


Do you own a pair of LVC's? I was talking about the feeling of wearing a worn in pair of, let's say, 47's...Maybe it's only me, but it feels like you step back in time and wear a jean of that days. Sounds romantic? ;-) Yep!
I totally agree with you guys, jap denim is fantastic, no question. As said before, I own only a pair of SDA Indys and a Denime 66xx (besides my SDA203-sic, Cone Denim ;-), and Edwin sen selvage, but that's another story). All are awesome, no doubt. And I know japanese guys are doin' a perfect job when it comes to clothing (not only jeans).

But hey, I wanted to talk about the fabrics only and their differences.

Yeah, I have the 1967 505 - it's made with Kaihara denim though.
I'm actually not a strict-repro kind of guy...I like vintage details, but I don't need exact specs - my style is more a fusion of Americana with heavy Asian influences (hoping to incorporate just a little bit of steampunk also).

Anyway, onto fabrics (sorry for the divergence) - I'm more into the texture and colour of the denim more than the fading process...so for me, Japanese denim with it's various interesting dyeing techniques (including natural hank dyes) and their multitude of wondrous, slubby fabrics is more my kind of thing.
In other words, I like to feel interesting textures with my hands (big part of why I prefer exotic skins to regular cowhide) :P

I guess it's what you're after in the fabric in the end - I guess for dr. house it's a reminiscence of older times in the golden years of Levi's jeans, for me it's having something interesting to feel when I'm bored :P

ThinFinn
5th November 2010, 16:16
Actually, many people reckon Sugar Cane's 47/55/66 fabrics are closer to the original than the Cone fabrics that Levi's use.
That's why I said if SC could legally replicate old Levi's jeans in their entirety, LVC would lose out.

I highly doubt Levi's of old were made with sloppy construction though...it would have been trampled by Lee, Wrangler, Boss of the Road, etc long ago if they consistently pumped out poorly made jeans.



Yeah, I have the 1967 505 - it's made with Kaihara denim though.
I'm actually not a strict-repro kind of guy...I like vintage details, but I don't need exact specs - my style is more a fusion of Americana with heavy Asian influences (hoping to incorporate just a little bit of steampunk also).

Anyway, onto fabrics (sorry for the divergence) - I'm more into the texture and colour of the denim more than the fading process...so for me, Japanese denim with it's various interesting dyeing techniques (including natural hank dyes) and their multitude of wondrous, slubby fabrics is more my kind of thing.
In other words, I like to feel interesting textures with my hands (big part of why I prefer exotic skins to regular cowhide) :P

I guess it's what you're after in the fabric in the end - I guess for dr. house it's a reminiscence of older times in the golden years of Levi's jeans, for me it's having something interesting to feel when I'm bored :P
... couldn't said it better mike!...
i loved to wear my LVC44s cuz they felt just right for me "at the beginning" of getting into the "real" dry denim world. but after i've purchased my first pairs of jap.denim (samurai and warehouse!) i just was over them, cuz of the look,weight,fealing and color of the denim...it's just something else, a whole nother world imo!...

anyways, I'm looking at some LVC66s again, so i'm open for both :-P

nice discussion and thread-theme btw. dr.!...

beautiful_FrEaK
5th November 2010, 17:29
yes it's realyl an interesting theme...unfortunately I've got no time today..maybe I'll contribute tomorrow again. But it's nice to read all of your opinions!

Atzec
5th November 2010, 21:17
for me it's having something interesting to feel when I'm bored :P

haha, i´m glad, that i´m not the only onw, who rubbs his hands down his jeans, just to feel a bit more....happy. :-P

*touching my denimes*

dr.house
5th November 2010, 21:55
I want you guys to see something really interesting:


SO here's some for fun.

Fuzz. This is unsinged, totally loomstate denim. There is a modest amount compared to some - this is a 1910s fabric, whereas it tends to be the late 60s fabrics which have more fuzz, as the cotton used changed to shorter staple varieties.

For the most authentic 1910s denim, you'd ideally need a long-staple cotton, like the old Sea Island. Those old jeans must have been softer, and stronger, than 50s or 60s jeans thanks to that historic old cotton, which was wiped out by the Boll Weevil in the 1920s.

http://img818.imageshack.us/img818/1531/fuzz.jpg

Pretty streaky; the vertical lines are the ring pattern of the yarn, pure indigo-dyed. No sulphur, top or bottom, or other pigments. This denim looks quite black in the flesh; I think you'll get very green-blue midtones, and very 3-dimensional wear. But no-one knows for sure. For anyone who wears this denim, if anyone ever does, this will be a journey into the unknown. You'll be a denim explorer.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e295/greenwichpaul/Dirty%20Dozen/streakiness.jpg

The codename is K87211. It has a nice ring to it. K87211.

Does that say 12.5oz on the tag? Interesting. Much heavier than true vintage-style denim. Wonder what those other symbols mean.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e295/greenwichpaul/Dirty%20Dozen/K87211mainretouch2.jpg

Selvage is as plain as they come, none of your fancy purples and golds.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e295/greenwichpaul/Dirty%20Dozen/selvage.jpg

They've been working on getting the warp yarn more uneven, getting the neps produced by the old picking process, all to get closer to a vintage, 1910s-style fabric. Note the very chunky fill yarn. This cotton is unbleached; you might never have seen this kind of fill yarn in this style of denim before, I certainly haven't.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e295/greenwichpaul/Dirty%20Dozen/87211weft.jpg

Whaddy'all think? Nice???

.

*touching my indys* :-)

beautiful_FrEaK
5th November 2010, 22:03
yeah that's some nice Cone denim

*touching my Samurais*

dr.house
5th November 2010, 22:07
Yeah, isn't it? I hope we'll hear moar from this dreamstuff...I'm always torn between both denim worlds.
Btw mikeech, don't you own a pair of sugar cane hawaii?

*touching my indys again*

woody
6th November 2010, 02:41
very, very interesting thread. Been thinking for a while that we needed something like this on mynudies, but i certainly don't know enough about it to contribute something meaningful. Any suggestions as to where those that want to learn more should head to? Might be worth editing in a few links on the first post to help out the less educated (me) ;-)

mikecch
6th November 2010, 02:55
^^ I have the older Ryukyu model (sc40300) - I want a pair of Hawaii's though, but the older model (sc40400) is sold out in my size :(

Man, that blackseed mix loom-state denim looks interesting - a very 'virgin' denim I suppose. Wonder if Roy will ever use something similar.

^ Woody, I don't know man, other than going to the denim trade shows, I guess you just have to travel more to touch these denims or buy more of these denims :P
IMO the only proper way to learn about it is to touch them, and even wear them a little bit.
But maybe these will help:

http://www.conedenim.com/
http://www.nihonmenpu.co.jp/
http://www.japanblue.co.jp/
http://www.kaihara-denim.com/english/index.html
http://www.kurabo.co.jp/english/index.html
http://www.denim-kuroki.co.jp/english/main.html
http://www.nisshinbo.co.jp/english/field/textiles.html

* touching my Clippers *

Benzak
6th November 2010, 03:05
nice thread and responses guys

however, there is no general US nor Japanese style of denim fabric, so it is impossible to just tell the difference between these two supplying regions in one post reply; you'd have to count in many aspects (but that's what the discussion is for I guess..)

there is one thing about Japanese stuff in general that also counts for many Japanese fabrics: copy + improve. this started after WWII, e.g. Edwin was one of the first companies in Japan to produce their own denim fabrics in the late 40s, inspired by the American brands. In the 70s and 80s many brands (Osaka 5) started to pick up this trend of reproducing the higher quality (but more costly) denim Levi's used to use, while Levi's themselves started shifting production from shuttle looms (80 cm with self edges - a continuing weft yarn) to projectile looms (150 cm without self edges), which has inferior quality compared to the old machines but much more economical in use. Nowadays, many Japanese weavers have taken this trend to another level of improvement, like super heavyweights, big slubs, improved dying techniques etc etc

and yes, SC makes a better (read: closer to the original) 47 than LVC, but that is also due to the metals and threads (in general, the Japanese go deep into ALL the details)

mikecch
6th November 2010, 03:13
^ Yeah bro, 18 different thread sizes on the SC 47's - haven't seen anybody top that yet :P

I guess I'm very biased when it comes to this subject. Slubs = auto-win for me.
If Cone ever makes some good quality, slubby denim (similar to the ones Ande Whall used some years back), I'd be all over them.

IIIrd Icon
6th November 2010, 05:37
^ Yeah bro, 18 different thread sizes on the SC 47's - haven't seen anybody top that yet :P

I guess I'm very biased when it comes to this subject. Slubs = auto-win for me.
If Cone ever makes some good quality, slubby denim (similar to the ones Ande Whall used some years back), I'd be all over them.
wow, i got to pay moar attention__ dint even know that about the SCs. before i got started with the more exotic jap denim, i had fancied Denime & Sugarcanes.

1st SC pair i had was a prodn '47s with the "broken arcs". the denim had a nice vintage fade. after that i had the SC '55 "Stovepipe" [double ringspun w/Gripper zips], but was not fond of the fit, so i let them go. the double ringspun tho' i LUVed & the construction was just ace. when SE came out with the SExCO2 i instakopped. the 3rd pair was the SC Hawaii 40400N. the denim was not the usual dark indigo even when dry, but it was a "bleeder"__ the indigo just bled everywhere. so, i hot soaked X2 just to get rid of the the loose dye pigments. result was this ligther denim w/darker linear indigo flecks that looked like slubs from a distance__ 45RPM just came out with a similar type of denim, but with charcoal ink weft which they're selling for $1000+ retail :shock:.

anyway, i wore the 40400N for about month without even making a bit of progress. the denim is superb, but i decided to put them on ice until i can devote more exclusive time to break them in properly.

so, that's my Sugarcane experience... 3 slices of heaven ;-)

mikecch
6th November 2010, 06:26
Oh IIIrd...you've inspired me to spend some time with my sc40300 again.

*touching my Ryukyu-ai*

-nudiefive-
6th November 2010, 07:49
whats all this touching denim going on..:lol: why dont SDA make the same crazy jeans but with both American and Jap denim..now u guys can touch both legs :lol:

mikecch
6th November 2010, 07:53
^ Brilliant idea five, you should sent SDA an e-mail!
Maybe the Xmas edition of 2011 could have left leg Cone (the fabric on their 200 series jeans), right leg Jap denim (the standard 15 oz).

-nudiefive-
6th November 2010, 08:01
indeed! They have to call it "Nikkei Amerikajin" :lol: but if it would be made..i still think few denim nerds will love it.

dr.house
6th November 2010, 10:33
^That idea is great and a lot more interesting than the more or less 'usual' LHT/RHT thing on SDA's special models. Great Five, you're my man :-)
Btw, the 18 thread thing on Canes is pretty cool. I've had the regular 47's model but I let them go, they were too boxy for me. I should keep my eyes open for the slimmer model 2 I guess...

IIIrd Icon
6th November 2010, 13:20
whats all this touching denim going on..:lol: why dont SDA make the same crazy jeans but with both American and Jap denim..now u guys can touch both legs :lol:
:lol: ... but, srsly, if they are going to do it, it gotta be front x back [as oppose to side x side]... that way you'd be touching your front & back, instead :lol:

__ srsly speaking tho', the jeans will uncontrollably warp out to a horrible & awkward look/feel/fit due to totally different denim behavior. maybe, a quick industrial soak to get some of the shrinkage out of the way before cutting to stabilize both fabrics.

btw, just to get on board with the "touching" thing... LUVed touching the FC 1108C when they were new cuz they got a soft feel + the cut was hugging me closer. now that they've fully broken in, i LUV touching 'em even more... or maybe it's got nothing to do with the denim :lol:

mikecch
6th November 2010, 13:39
^ Do it the Pherrow's way - industrial starch wash!

My sc40460 was Levi's style, RHT front and Lee style, LHT back...interesting pair.

beautiful_FrEaK
6th November 2010, 19:00
to add some pictures to that topic

Pictures of Samurai denim being woven!

http://www.samurai-j.com/samurai/kodawari/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/hata11.JPG

selvage line
http://www.samurai-j.com/samurai/kodawari/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/hata21.JPG

http://www.samurai-j.com/samurai/kodawari/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/hata3.JPG

http://www.samurai-j.com/samurai/kodawari/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/hata5.JPG

http://www.samurai-j.com/samurai/kodawari/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/hata6.JPG

http://www.samurai-j.com/samurai/kodawari/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/hata7.JPG

http://www.samurai-j.com/samurai/kodawari/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/hata8.JPG

http://www.samurai-j.com/samurai/kodawari/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/hata9.JPG

http://www.samurai-j.com/samurai/kodawari/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/hata10-2.JPG

http://www.samurai-j.com/samurai/kodawari/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/hata111.JPG

http://www.samurai-j.com/samurai/kodawari/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/hata12.JPG

http://www.samurai-j.com/samurai/kodawari/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/hata13.JPG

http://www.samurai-j.com/samurai/kodawari/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/hata14-2.JPG

http://www.samurai-j.com/samurai/kodawari/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/hata15.JPG

http://www.samurai-j.com/samurai/kodawari/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/hata16.JPG

http://www.samurai-j.com/samurai/kodawari/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/hata17.JPG

http://www.samurai-j.com/samurai/kodawari/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/hata18.JPG

hippopatamus
6th November 2010, 19:14
what a mass product

beautiful_FrEaK
6th November 2010, 19:21
did you expect some old master craftsman on a vintage wooden shuttle loom?!

Benzak
6th November 2010, 19:46
yeah wtf.. these are vintage machines dude!

THIS is mass production:

http://www.femateks.com/images/40%20SULZER%20P7200%20B390%20N4%20EPDK3.jpg

hippopatamus
6th November 2010, 19:51
haha just messin with you guys lol...those vintage shuttle loom were something

Benzak
6th November 2010, 19:57
they still are!

dr.house
6th November 2010, 20:47
Great pics, thanks Tilmann and Benzak.

*touching my SDA203's :-))))*

-nudiefive-
7th November 2010, 03:56
Hey b_f, would be great if we can post the Samurai Denim "in the making" , on our little blog. :-)

Max Power
7th November 2010, 10:04
^great pics, Lennaert and Tilmann!

ThinFinn
7th November 2010, 12:39
awesome pics there tilmann!...

dr.house
7th November 2010, 12:47
I'll never understand why you wanna sell your worn in 44's (and sold your 9014's and the other boots), Rafael...

dr.house
7th November 2010, 12:56
iCandy from Cone:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_ZespQm2KuUc/Sp_VxZARnCI/AAAAAAAAAAc/pa_LY0wAwzM/s1600/ladiesweaveroomblog.jpg


http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_ZespQm2KuUc/SrEvIXZjMgI/AAAAAAAAADk/EitQIyt_Eq4/s1600/2.jpg

...and Roy at work:

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_ZespQm2KuUc/Sp_mGarkAcI/AAAAAAAAAB0/66hL7LyTuvY/s1600/royslaper.jpg

mikecch
7th November 2010, 13:10
You plan on getting a pair of Roy's dr. house?

Some slightly used White Oak denim on my Roy's close-up:
http://i686.photobucket.com/albums/vv228/CCH_photo/DSC03764.jpg
http://i686.photobucket.com/albums/vv228/CCH_photo/DSC03860.jpg

Just to balance it out a little, here's some incredible textures on Japanese fabrics:
http://img130.imageshack.us/img130/5336/pb060007x.jpg
http://i686.photobucket.com/albums/vv228/CCH_photo/DSC04271.jpg
http://i686.photobucket.com/albums/vv228/CCH_photo/DSC04343.jpg

Atzec
7th November 2010, 13:13
http://img130.imageshack.us/img130/5336/pb060007x.jpg

what´s that denim?

mikecch
7th November 2010, 13:19
Nihon Menpu's 50% cotton/50% sugar cane millet, LHT, natural Ryukyu-ai hank-dyed to core; made into the sc40300 by Sugar Cane.

beautiful_FrEaK
7th November 2010, 13:34
great pictures Mike and Stefan! was a great idea to open that thread

Atzec
7th November 2010, 13:34
^thanks for the info. looks amazing.

dr.house
7th November 2010, 20:43
@mikeech: Yeah, ROY's are defintely on my mind. And I have to agree, great pics! Nice to see this thread developing.

dr.house
11th November 2010, 10:19
Check this out. Anyone knows where to get 'em?

http://www.hypebeast.com/image/2010/11/cone-mills-levis-505-limited-edition-1.jpg

http://www.hypebeast.com/image/2010/11/cone-mills-levis-505-limited-edition-4.jpg

http://www.hypebeast.com/image/2010/11/cone-mills-levis-505-limited-edition-5.jpg

http://www.hypebeast.com/image/2010/11/cone-mills-levis-505-limited-edition-6.jpg

http://www.hypebeast.com/image/2010/11/cone-mills-levis-505-limited-edition-7.jpg

Pictures are taken from:
http://hypebeast.com/2010/11/cone-mills-x-levis-505-limited-edition-jean/

Max Power
11th November 2010, 10:35
^somehow doesn't appeal to me. They're not even chainstitched.

mikecch
11th November 2010, 10:36
Kiya's got a pair I think, ask him?

Why is there no chain-stitching on the hem?

woody
11th November 2010, 10:38
They actually look quite nice... says in the article that they are available in 2 of the levi's stores in the states

dr.house
11th November 2010, 10:38
I know. They're a special limited edition (505 pairs). PB's aren't chainstitched too as well, btw. I miss the chainstitch too, but the denim looks tasty.


Edit: Thanks woody, I didn't read the txt :-)

mikecch
11th November 2010, 10:46
Honestly, better just cop a pair of Roy's - denim doesn't look as tasty as what Roy uses, and Roy's construction is definitely much better judging by the pics Kiya posted.

dr.house
11th November 2010, 10:52
Yeah, Roy is still on my mind...

IIIrd Icon
11th November 2010, 14:40
IMO [considering the price point], all i can say is that if Roy comes up with some interesting denim to go with his expertly made jeans, i'd be interested. i got enough Cone i can handle at this point.

IIIrd Icon
13th November 2010, 19:34
Cones vs these:

http://img687.imageshack.us/img687/4811/schawaii.jpg

http://img831.imageshack.us/img831/1385/samai.jpg

http://img574.imageshack.us/img574/1534/45rpmfujimon.jpg

Atzec
13th November 2010, 20:26
^all of these look amazing, but i like the canes best. which model?

fairylicks
13th November 2010, 21:33
how can such small details, like a selvage line, be so great?!?

dr.house
13th November 2010, 21:48
Stillife from the 'other side':

http://img607.imageshack.us/img607/444/dsci0252.jpg (http://img607.imageshack.us/i/dsci0252.jpg/)

IIIrd Icon
13th November 2010, 21:55
^all of these look amazing, but i like the canes best. which model?
SC 40400N__ 50/50 cotton/sugarcane fiber, natural hawaiin indigo dyed :: single stitch + felled seams.

how can such small details, like a selvage line, be so great?!?
quoting Bruce Lee, "... don't concentrate on the finger or you'll miss all that heavenly glory". selvedge is quite simply [as well as, literally] just the edge. it's the whole creation that we're reveling about. btw, selvage [alone] does not automatically mean quality is top__ but, i think u know that already ;-)

dr.house
13th November 2010, 22:06
http://img593.imageshack.us/img593/9120/dsci0256.jpg (http://img593.imageshack.us/i/dsci0256.jpg/)

...guess the fabric.

Atzec
13th November 2010, 22:11
as it´s YOU asking: CONE!?


SC 40400N__ 50/50 cotton/sugarcane fiber, natural hawaiin indigo dyed :: single stitch + felled seams.


ok, am i right, that this is the pre-lawsuit version of the hawaii?

dr.house
13th November 2010, 22:20
^Yep. But it's special (and as you can see, very hairy). It's a sanforized cone fabric used in the Studio d'Artisan SD 203 which fade exactly like my LVC 47's.

IIIrd Icon
13th November 2010, 23:53
ok, am i right, that this is the pre-lawsuit version of the hawaii?
yea, they are pre-lawsuit, but different model from the SC Hawaii w/the "turtle" hair-on-hide patch__ which were not natural indigo dyed.

mikecch
14th November 2010, 02:48
Haha, those fabrics are awesome IIIrd!!!

That 45rpm one looks really interesting too.

IIIrd Icon
17th November 2010, 05:39
Haha, those fabrics are awesome IIIrd!!!

That 45rpm one looks really interesting too.
the Fujimon denim__ had to be @$1000+ a pop. the denim is like a the combination of the flecky [lighter hued] 40400N + ink-dyed weft of the 5000ai or pbj 011.

DoitsuJin
17th November 2010, 05:49
40400N - is that the same fabric Gun uses on his artist denim?

mikecch
17th November 2010, 13:26
According to Artist Denim, yes it is.
I don't know whether Nihon Menpu has modified the denim in any way since it was last used by Sugar Cane back in 2006 though....

IIIrd Icon
17th November 2010, 14:12
^iirc, SC came out with 3 natural dye versions on the 50/50: Ryukyu-Ai [40300N], Edo-Ai [40500N, w/c SuFu's Chantheman used to have], & Hawaii [40400N]... + they had the SCxBegin "rainbow" Ltd Ed with 3 overlapping circles [backpocket arc].

Pablo T
20th November 2010, 14:55
You plan on getting a pair of Roy's dr. house?

Some slightly used White Oak denim on my Roy's close-up:
http://i686.photobucket.com/albums/vv228/CCH_photo/DSC03764.jpg
http://i686.photobucket.com/albums/vv228/CCH_photo/DSC03860.jpg

Just to balance it out a little, here's some incredible textures on Japanese fabrics:
http://img130.imageshack.us/img130/5336/pb060007x.jpg
http://i686.photobucket.com/albums/vv228/CCH_photo/DSC04271.jpg
http://i686.photobucket.com/albums/vv228/CCH_photo/DSC04343.jpg

Those are beautiful.

I really loved the texture of my Edo Ai 40501, and of course the MF Nihon Menpu:

I like wearing jeans raw, and these are more attractive than, say, most Cone or traditional US fabrics - altho there's gnarly 1930s fabrics that look pretty similar.

http://img703.imageshack.us/img703/8199/mrfreedomdenim.jpg

With the MF, though, I think they wear too quickly. After six months I like subtle highlights coming through, not full-on wear.
http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/8761/mrfreedomworn.jpg

The Cone approach is completely different. A different kind of wear (these are maybe 8 or 9 months). It's not exclusively american of course - I see SDA fabrics as being very much in this vibe, certainly on my 103XX, meant to come into their own in, say, 10 months rather than five.

http://img819.imageshack.us/img819/6790/55501crop.jpg

Altho I think a lot of this is conditioning - the sight of the first denim that you've realy liked, and for me it was seeing those few remaining 50s Levi's actually being worn or - occasioanally - being on sale for $50 or $100.

beautiful_FrEaK
20th November 2010, 15:06
good to see you posting here too and share your pictures and wisdom!

mikecch
20th November 2010, 16:09
Some nice pics there Mr. T!
That last pic of the faded Cone denim looks rather nice.

What is the denim shown in your first pic?

Pablo T
20th November 2010, 17:43
IT's the the legs of the MFSC dungarees - left hand SC denim (note how subdued the twill line is), IIRC the same as the Okinawas fabric. Drop-dead gorgeous pants, I love the covert lining fabric too. I'm probably unusual in that I reckon they look their best when new.

By the way, someone earlier debated whether old Leiv's were always well-constructed.

Check out these late 60s Big E 302:

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e295/greenwichpaul/Denim/interior1.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e295/greenwichpaul/Denim/interior2.jpg

Spiraltoy
20th November 2010, 21:55
Best thread in ages!
I've got denim from H&M that is neater on the inside than those late 60's big E. Amazing.
I've def got more western style fabric in my wardrobe and love how they look worn in but on the other hand the feel of some sluby, hairy Japanese fabric is lovely.
I dono if i like how streaky it tend t get when worn in though...

mikecch
21st November 2010, 01:14
IT's the the legs of the MFSC dungarees - left hand SC denim (note how subdued the twill line is), IIRC the same as the Okinawas fabric. Drop-dead gorgeous pants, I love the covert lining fabric too. I'm probably unusual in that I reckon they look their best when new.

By the way, someone earlier debated whether old Leiv's were always well-constructed.

Check out these late 60s Big E 302:

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e295/greenwichpaul/Denim/interior1.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e295/greenwichpaul/Denim/interior2.jpg

Indeed, messy...

What about the older models? Say 47? Or even older?

-nudiefive-
21st November 2010, 04:17
very nice thread! of course with the ever knowledgeable Pablo on board! :-) from all this time of denims, i have to agree that Jap fabrics have more character and personality to them, and i honestly think no fabric/denim should be compared unless the initial idea is to achieve/copy the look from samples of old fabrics, also I dont think back then people are anal about the "clean" construction. :-P

-nudiefive-
21st November 2010, 11:33
just some pictures..because we all love pictures right :-) and both are equally beautiful

Cone
http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb170/otek26/DSC04081.jpg

http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb170/otek26/DSC04078.jpg

SC40200
http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb170/otek26/DSC04075.jpg
Both
http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb170/otek26/DSC04084.jpg

Max Power
21st November 2010, 11:48
^great macros, five!

beautiful_FrEaK
21st November 2010, 11:53
yeah I need a cam which is able to take such pictures

Pablo T
21st November 2010, 16:52
very nice thread! of course with the ever knowledgeable Pablo on board! :-) from all this time of denims, i have to agree that Jap fabrics have more character and personality to them, and i honestly think no fabric/denim should be compared unless the initial idea is to achieve/copy the look from samples of old fabrics, also I dont think back then people are anal about the "clean" construction. :-P
Not sure I agree, but of course that's what this is all about.

I often think of the analogy with wines: all the investment and new ideas tend to come from New Zealand, California or Australia - their stuff is exciting, reinterprets old ideas, and benefits from new investment, and gets lots of new people into wine. THeir product is probably easier to buy in decent quality than the French wine that inspired it; equally, some of their wines - oaked Chardonnays or over-heavy Cab Sauvs - are exaggerated, and often when you go back to a good Pouilly Fumé, you're staggered because it still somehow is How It SHould Be and wondered why you ever bought anything different. But if you've only bought Pouilly Fumé cheap from the hypermarket over the channel you will never realise this.

for all this, a year of the Eternals vs a year of the Cone X8711 should give us an interesting comparison of the two philosophies. I'm stagged how quickly the former are showing wear, of course they doo look absolutely beautiful.

-nudiefive-
22nd November 2010, 05:28
Not sure I agree

What?!:mad: Im comin over to UK this Dec to get you Paul...unless you want to buy me some nice Pouilly Fumé while im there. :-P

Pablo T
22nd November 2010, 11:38
Yeah, but what if it's a lousy Pouilly Fumé and my argument is destroyed??

dr.house
22nd November 2010, 15:07
Denim in details. Here you can see the right knees from my LVC 55 compared to my SDA Indys, photographed from the side. Both pairs are worn 40-50 times:

LVC 1955 501:

http://img32.imageshack.us/img32/2289/dsci0281n.jpg (http://img32.imageshack.us/i/dsci0281n.jpg/)

http://img547.imageshack.us/img547/995/dsci0282.jpg (http://img547.imageshack.us/i/dsci0282.jpg/)

Studio D'Artisan Indy (LHT)

http://img405.imageshack.us/img405/734/dsci0283x.jpg (http://img405.imageshack.us/i/dsci0283x.jpg/)

http://img593.imageshack.us/img593/5907/dsci0285.jpg (http://img593.imageshack.us/i/dsci0285.jpg/)


...and don't tell me SDA's are hard to break :p

And yeah, we all love pics. A super close-up from the LVC (backpocket detail):

http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/8519/dsci0286.jpg (http://img231.imageshack.us/i/dsci0286.jpg/)

beautiful_FrEaK
22nd November 2010, 15:20
try the 1xx denim from SDA :-p
what cam do use?

dr.house
22nd November 2010, 15:34
Medion...cheap trick :-D

beautiful_FrEaK
22nd November 2010, 16:05
wow...maybe I should find out how to use my cam properly

ThinFinn
22nd November 2010, 16:29
^maybe you should! :-)

some wh-porn:
http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/525/pb222246.jpg

http://img25.imageshack.us/img25/5521/pb222253.jpg

http://img130.imageshack.us/img130/9944/pb222252.jpg

http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/2970/pb222248.jpg

dr.house
22nd November 2010, 16:41
^Nice, Rafael!

^^ Tilmann, I'm sure there is a special setting for close ups on your cam, maybe a flower symbol?

ThinFinn
22nd November 2010, 16:48
^Nice, Rafael!

^^ Tilmann, I'm sure there is a special setting for close ups on your cam, maybe a flower symbol?
http://www.netzwelt.de/images/articles/makro_symbol_1150191620.jpg

beautiful_FrEaK
22nd November 2010, 17:32
thanks Rafael, I know what a flower is :tongue:

yeah I use that. maybe I should zoom more but most of the times it gets blurry then

dr.house
22nd November 2010, 17:36
http://www.netzwelt.de/images/articles/makro_symbol_1150191620.jpg


thanks Rafael, I know what a flower is :tongue:



Great dialogue, I love that!

ThinFinn
22nd November 2010, 18:00
Hahah...:-D...

dr.house
10th December 2010, 21:06
Breathing life in this thread again:

http://img593.imageshack.us/img593/8232/dsci0384.jpg

....even cone is hairy if you come close enough :-) Wait for the Roys, diggers!

mikecch
13th December 2010, 11:50
A friend of your Indy jeans dr. house, here are my Clipper's:

http://img837.imageshack.us/img837/4571/pc130036.jpg
http://img560.imageshack.us/img560/3047/pc130042.jpg
http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/7954/pc130022.jpg

dr.house
13th December 2010, 12:12
Haha, thanks Mike. Nice! Pics of the Indys asap (wear 'em at the moment).

dr.house
25th December 2010, 22:36
Hi Guys,

please visit my 66 diary on sufu, thanks!

http://www.superfuture.com/supertalk/showthread.php?t=253488

ThinFinn
26th December 2010, 03:32
subscribed doc ;-)

mikecch
26th December 2010, 05:31
Hi Guys,

please visit my 66 diary on sufu, thanks!

http://www.superfuture.com/supertalk/showthread.php?t=253488

Will follow closely - interesting project!

dr.house
26th December 2010, 09:17
Thanks guys. Here's some x-post for THIS thread:

http://img96.imageshack.us/img96/725/lvc3.jpg (http://img96.imageshack.us/i/lvc3.jpg/)

LVC 66

http://img560.imageshack.us/img560/5632/sc3q.jpg (http://img560.imageshack.us/i/sc3q.jpg/)

Sugar Canes 66

Max Power
27th December 2010, 08:58
Interesting project. Subscribed, too.

dr.house
27th December 2010, 09:57
One of the most interesting parts of my 'one man show' will be the inseam shrinkage of the wrong tagged LVC...:-( Thanks, threebyone.

beautiful_FrEaK
27th December 2010, 11:19
isn't it more a failure of Levi's?
And I still don't understand why you took a smaller size in the Sugarcane..or were Naoki's measurements off?

dr.house
27th December 2010, 11:43
The 66 SC's are a lot more roomy in the top block compared to the LVC's or even the Denimes. Size down one is the foolproof way I guess: measured raw 33, shrinks to 31, stretches out to a 32". That's it.

Yeah, it's of course a failure of LVC, but 3by1 should check their stuff, no? I'm a bit confused about the inseam of the LVC, the outside leg is roundabout 115cm, that's like a 36", but the INseam is only like a 33", maybe it's just a matter of the frontrise. I've corrected the measurements after I found a new measure tape with inches, check the sufu thread if you like..we'll see, they'll get machine soaked today (30° C degrees, no detergent, slow cycle).

beautiful_FrEaK
27th December 2010, 11:54
of course I check that thread! :-D
I don't think it's a 3by1 failure. what should they do? measure every pair and then write a new number on the tag?
I think it's a fault of the company, just like with the Samurai Lot.10 problem (shrink from tag size instead of shrinking to tag size).
I see BiG and SE measuring every pair (although BiG doesn't measure every pair, SE nearly does) but those are both real denim shops and 3by1 is more a general fashion shop

dr.house
27th December 2010, 13:22
Hmmmmyeah...doesn't matter anymore, both pairs are drying now after soak. Can't wait to measure again, but I'm sure it takes at least two days until they're dry.

mikecch
27th December 2010, 13:29
Haha, thanks Mike. Nice! Pics of the Indys asap (wear 'em at the moment).

Where is the Indy pr0n you promised dr. house :P

beautiful_FrEaK
27th December 2010, 13:32
yeah...getting denim dry by just air-dry them is real annoying in winter. just hung my S510xx21oz up

dr.house
27th December 2010, 13:58
Where is the Indy pr0n you promised dr. house :P

Yeah, I'm bad. The Indys are fresh washed in the closet, but they're looking cool. But hey, I've got so much work with my 66 one man show, :-), can I have a bit more time???

mikecch
27th December 2010, 14:07
Hehe, now worries dr. house - don't forget the contest jeans that should reach us in a few days :)

dr.house
27th December 2010, 14:10
Yep, can't wait to get 'em. Know what? I'm also waiting for a 37's LVC :-D

mikecch
27th December 2010, 14:16
^ So many good denim, but not enough years in a life to wear them all!

beautiful_FrEaK
27th December 2010, 14:16
your poor ROYs ;-)

dr.house
27th December 2010, 14:23
Guuuuuuuys! There are a lot more to come, wait and see! The ROYs will be rocked hard, I promise!

p90xyz
7th September 2011, 19:19
Does raw denim ever get that soft feeling? I have lucky jeans that are super incredibly soft, just wondering if raw denim ever gets there or if it stays tough.

woody
8th September 2011, 09:40
Definitely. Depending on the cotton used, the denim can be pretty damn soft from the beginning. I have some SEXI08bks and they are some of the softest jeans I have after only a few months. Others that are more starchy can get softer naturally over time, or if you really want to get rid of the crunchiness (you miss it after a while) you can just wash them sooner.

Max Power
8th September 2011, 10:55
Of course. Raw denim and prewashed denim are the same fabric, just in different states.

mikecch
8th September 2011, 11:25
The Cone Mills K87211 denim on my Roy x Cone jeans have become one of the softest denim I've owned, counting both 'raw' denim and the pre-washed Italian stuff I used to wear way back...

Coming back to the thread, gotta say I've become more fond of Cone's fabrics this year :wink:

beautiful_FrEaK
8th September 2011, 11:58
I'm really looking forward to getting me new (but hopefully old) Denime XX denim in some days (and a pair of deadstock Denime XX 1951) :-D

So it's still Japanese over US for me

Max Power
8th September 2011, 13:12
for me too. I don't really like the cone fabric on the LVCs I won. But PBJ, Samurai and Momotaro denim makes me drool.

Cold Summer
18th November 2011, 14:01
But what really interests me: when you look at some Lightning magazines, it's incredible how many "reaL" denim stores there are in Japan. So I wondered, if it's normal there for most people to buy, let's say Samurai Jeans (or old Big E stuff), instead of some cheap H&M stuff or something similar.

Definitely not, I'd say. It's more common here than in the US, but still very much a specialty thing. There are only two stores in my city that sell brands like SDA, Flat Head, Samurai, etc. Most of us are in our twenties, but the Japanese guys who wear the same clothes as us tend to be much older, I've noticed. Twenty-something Japanese guys dress kind of girly and aren't really into most of the stuff we are (the major exception being Red Wing, which is quite popular across demographics.)


And where does this appreceation come from? I think the Japanese were adapting some western lifestyle, as the germans did after WWII, and with that came the biker/rocker/denim image. I may be totally wrong, but it would be great if somebody could clarify a bit of the history of jap. denim and how the society there stands toward it.

I think it's definitely an idolization/idealization of post-war American culture. It seems to spring from the same origin as Japan's love for vintage guitars (which have a lot in common with denim, actually.) However, I think there's something about how denim (and leather) becomes more beautiful with age that appeal to the Japanese aesthetic - wabi sabi and all that. It's quite interesting, really.

Max Power
18th November 2011, 14:16
It is. Thanks for the enlightning!

beautiful_FrEaK
18th November 2011, 16:40
yeah that's really interesting to hear. the jeans may be easier to access but it's still a niche. somewhat nice feeling :-)

Max Power
18th November 2011, 17:10
Indeed. I tend to look at the jeans of japanese tourists (there are many in my hometown) and i never spotted a high-end pair.

beautiful_FrEaK
18th November 2011, 17:15
Hehe. I saw a pair of selvage jeans today at university but had no chance to check out the brand. Worn by a professor.

Max Power
18th November 2011, 17:28
I keep seeing a lot of Selvage jeans lately, mostly at the Schanze. But I don't know most brands, but Edwin and Carhartt.

shiuym
15th December 2011, 11:32
how do you guys think about texas cotton? some japanese denim are using texas cotton as I know.
I don't know much about jeans (yet), I feel like the jeans made by texas cotton has a stronger texture than cone (white oak, eg: LVC).

P.S. what are some names of japanese cotton that used in Japanese denim?

shiuym
15th December 2011, 11:48
Don't know if you guys read this before, but it seems interesting for me as a beginner
http://www.buzzle.com/articles/types-of-cotton.html

I (http://www.buzzle.com/articles/types-of-cotton.html)t talks about some major types of cotton, like egyptian cotton and pima cotton.
hope you guys like it

beautiful_FrEaK
15th December 2011, 12:50
I don't know any Japanese brand that uses Japanese cotton as I don't know if Japan is a country with a big cotton production.
AFAIK, they all import cotton. From Africa, the US, China or wherever cotton is produced in big quantities,

thx for the ink, will read it now :-)

Max Power
15th December 2011, 13:09
Yeah, that would have been my answer too. I don't know of any japanese mill using japanese cotton.

mikecch
15th December 2011, 21:38
how do you guys think about texas cotton? some japanese denim are using texas cotton as I know.
I don't know much about jeans (yet), I feel like the jeans made by texas cotton has a stronger texture than cone (white oak, eg: LVC).

P.S. what are some names of japanese cotton that used in Japanese denim?

b_F and Max are quite right, Japan isn't a big producer of cotton and most of the cotton found on higher end denims are usually from the African continent or the USA/Mexico.
A fair bit of cotton in the Asia as well, but I'm not too familiar with that market.

Cone Mills uses a variety of cotton types.
Texas cotton that is used in Japanese denim, AFAIK, is a shorter staple and has coarser fibres (I'm guessing some type of Upland, Gossypium hirsutum), which when used in conjunction with another cotton in the warp threads can create an interesting, coarser texture.
However, many different types of cotton are grown in Texas, including extra-long staple varieties.

Though, the "best" cotton (extra-long staple, fine fibred - Gossypium barbadense - Sea Island, etc) are usually not used in denim, but reserved for higher end purposes such as bespoke shirting.
I have a pair with Pima (American extra-long staple) as the weft and it is remarkably comfortable.

P.S. Australia has a bit of cotton too, and Fullcount has a model with 100% Aussie cotton :)
Mostly medium to long staple Gossypium hirsutum.

shiuym
15th December 2011, 22:04
Wooo~ thank you very much everyone!!! it is great!!!
to mikecch: when the jeans labeled as "Texas cotton", what type of cotton are they ref to??? and how to we find out what kind of cotton the jean made of if it only labeled "100% cotton"

Thanks again guys!

beautiful_FrEaK
16th December 2011, 01:04
when they are labelled as Texas Cotton you can expect Texas Cotton...not sure if 100% but enough for you to notice it

mikecch
16th December 2011, 04:04
to mikecch: when the jeans labeled as "Texas cotton", what type of cotton are they ref to??? and how to we find out what kind of cotton the jean made of if it only labeled "100% cotton"


I have no idea..."Texas cotton" could mean any type of cotton which is grown in Texas, where everything from short-staples to extra-long staples are grown.
I remember that Samurai uses a shorter staple cotton from Texas with coarse fibres to enhance the tactile and textural effects of a couple of their denims, otherwise I have no idea...b_F may be the man to get the answer for us.

If fact, there is no way to tell the type of cotton it is the denim fabric unless you pull apart and analyse the warp and weft threads...and even after that you'd need professional knowledge and equipment to identify the precise species or even origin of the cotton - this I do not have. You could ask the company re: the constitution of the fabric, though they probably will not know, or simply have a vague idea. The only folks who'd really know would be the people working at the fabric mills.

I think, though, it doesn't really matter all that much precisely what the proportion and species are in the fabric.
For the wearer, it is really the hand and how the fabric wears that matters most, as even the finest raw materials - if not properly processed - may turn into a very plain fabric.

shiuym
16th December 2011, 11:47
Thank you b_f and mikecch.
Sorry about being very picky on the material. Hahaha! you might know what my major is from this
Thanks again

mikecch
16th December 2011, 12:32
^ Nup, what is it?:confused:

shiuym
17th December 2011, 01:13
I major in chemical engineering, and focus on material --- material scientist, haha~ currently doing research on nano-carbon, fun stuff!!!

mikecch
17th December 2011, 01:47
^ I see!

shiuym
17th December 2011, 01:53
haha! sorry, maybe it is just not that fun...

mikecch
17th December 2011, 12:26
^ Sounds interesting enough though!

Back on topic: I should have a small piece to write closer to the end of this year re: the comparison of Japanese and US denims from anecdotal evidence, as I've spent most of this year in Cone Mill fabric, in contrast with the past 5~6 years which have been dominated by Japanese denims.

shiuym
19th December 2011, 03:49
I just have a thought: how "well" the denim fade, would it be more depends on the dying process and what kind of dye it applies then the fabric?
(sorry if my logic just ... dumb)